Bleach: Is Ichigo really a Vaizard…or an Arrancar?
NON-MANGA READER FRIENDLY! All information have already been revealed in the anime! Now continue…
Here’s something to think about. How many of you actually think Ichigo is a Vaizard? I’ve looked at a lot of sites, including wikipedia, but my searching skills must be pretty crap as everywhere I look, Ichigo is assumed a Vaizard. And take note of how I say ‘assumed’. Is it possible that he is an arrancar and not a vaizard? Or more likely, from what I’m getting at, he is actually neither a Vaizard nor an Arrancar. Why? Let’s look at the definitions for both beings first.
Vaizard: A shinigami who obtains hollow powers.
Arrancar: A hollow who obtains shinigami powers.
But, why does Ichigo necessarily fit in with the first definition? If you recall, Ichigo gains shinigami powers from Rukia, though he never actually becomes a shinigami (he is not dead, is he?) Furthermore, he loses these powers completely after his first encounter with Byakuya and Renji. He is rescued and trained by Urahara after that. Now here’s the part where it becomes debatable.
In order for Ichigo to regain his shinigami powers, Urahara helps him by severing his soul chains (forgot what they are called) from his body, rendering him a normal soul that will either become a hollow or a shinigami. What happens though, is that he becomes a shinigami and a hollow at the same time. He emerges with a shattered Zanpakuto and a hollow mask. Essentially, after consoling Zangetsu in his mind, he is able to find his shinigami powers, namely his zanpakuto, at the same time he becomes a hollow and grows a mask. Ok yeah, now I’m just repeating myself, but all this leads to the same thing; he becomes a shinigami and hollow at the same time. And remember, just because his dad’s a shinigami, doesn’t mean he is too. Ichigo has to die first to become a shinigami. Either that, or his soul needs to part with his body first.
Anyway, after this, Ichigo’s shinigami side immediately takes over and becomes the dominant being over his body, though his hollow side remains dormant, and is always in him. Which means, he is not a shinigami who obtains hollow powers, nor is he a hollow who obtains shinigami powers. He is a normal soul that becomes a shinigami and a hollow at the same time: a perfect hyrbrid.
What happens if he were to lose to his hollow side and have it take over? Technically, Ichigo is Ichigo when he is in his human body, but Shinigami-Ichigo takes over whenever he fights. However, sometimes Hollow-Ichigo can take over as well. What if the Hollow-Ichigo becomes the dominant one, and Shinigami-Ichigo becomes the new ‘horse’ for the ‘king’ to ride on? Can you call Ichigo an arrancar now? It might even work: Hollow-Ichigo calling forth his shinigami powers like an arrancar…
So, what is your verdict? Of course I’m not saying any of this is true, just that it’s strange that I haven’t found anything on the internet that has similar claims to mine. I know, my searching skills suck, so if there’s some blatantly obvious site called Kurosaki is NOT a Vaizard, or something like that, then please don’t go crazy on me and start flaming. I would, however, love to here your thoughts, and any arguments for or against this post. Please, I want to see how many people share my views!
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well, its a good point to debate or whatnot, but i’m thinking along the lines of what the author wanted to tell us.
personally, i see what you are saying, danny, it makes sense; but i can’t help but think that ichigo was meant to be a vaizard, by author’s intention.
i personally think maybe the authors intention might be to make ichigo a perfect hybrid, which would assist in explaining why he is so strong
Show Spoiler ▼
Here’s my thought.
Kubo and his editors didn’t think about this before LOLZ. Remember at the end of vol3. Grand Fisher was remade by some weird hollow into a man-shaped hollow, which looks nothing like his Arrancar form – Arrancars and Vaizards were probably some idea Kubo made up later on.
Okay, so Ichigo lost his shinigami powers because Bakuya cut one of his vital organs or something. Kubo HAS to have some way to make Ichigo get his powers back, and in a moment of desperation, he chose to make him a hollow. It’s a ridiculous idea – either become a hollow or become a Shinigami, and the deciding factors are WILL POWER, NEKKETSU and GUTS? Sounds like any other badly thought out shounen manga to me!
Let’s assume that he became a hollow instead of a shinigami – what would happen then? It wouldn’t make him a Arrancar, because he would have shinigami powers. The shinigami powers belong to Ichigo Kurosaki, lying dormant for most of his life, probably drawn out and awoken through contact with Rukia’s powers. If he turns into a Hollow, the aspect of Ichigo Kurosaki that has the shinigami power will be either a) be gone or b) become further hidden, possibly until someone draws it out and turns him into an Arrancar.
Here’s another thing to think about – The gem thing that Urahara invented allows hollows to change abtain shinigami powers, but how? Do they just magically appear from within the crsytal, or do the original souls of the hollows have to have the potential to be a shinigami in the first place?
And how do people who were already shinigami attain hollow power? Obviously not like Ichigo – since they were already shinigami, there are no chains to cut. Additionally, how come everyone can fight in their bodies, but Ichigo HAS to come out of it?
There’s merit to thinking deeply about shounen anime, but if you delve too deep into it, you’ll just hurt your brain. I think we’ll just accept taht Ichigo is a Vaizard from the fact that he’s usually a shinigami but can gain an unbroken hollow mask. Remember, Arrancar’s masks are broken.
Well danny, i doubt what you say about how he’s higher then epsada level because clearly Show Spoiler ▼
Lupus so er….are you arguing for ichigo being a vaizard or something else entirely? in any case, even if kubo never thought of it, the way things are now, he can easily make ichigo into whatever he wants (aka perfect hybrid!!!) yeah thats still how im going…
inuyanyou: ok then, at least his above captain level. he easily ownded byakuya with his unrefined hollow form…now he can actually control it!
I think we can’t say exactly what Ichigo is, but he is not an arrancar because you have to be a hollow first. But Ichigo was not a hollow because he defeated or refused to become one. All he’s doing is channelling the powers of the hollow. The vaizards probably became like they are through similar means as the way Ichigo regained his power of a shinigami, so I’d say that he’s most similar to the vaizards than anything else.
I think the most likely answer is “neither”. Both Arrancar and Vaizard are both evolutions of spiritual beings. Ichigo represents something else entirely and the implications of which are actually staggering. Its implied that Urahara and Isshin might be responsible for some sort of eugenics project that produced Ichigo. His mother Masako also had significant spiritual powers after all.
Just imagine if injured shinigami could easily transfer their powers to spiritually aware humans, humans who could be bred for such a purpose. Both of Ichigo’s sisters exhibit at least a certain degree of ability in that regard which may indicate that their powers are consanguinous along a family line. If Shinigami powers could be transferred to such an individual, how about Hollow abilities? Could such a person hold both sets without going Chernobyl? Maybe that’s the whole point of Urahara’s experiment. As pointed out, Urahara attempts to transform Ichigo into a Hollow as well. It takes decades or centuries to train a captain-level shinigami or a Hollow of equivalent power. It takes weeks for someone like Ichigo to do the same. Now if it were reproducible, you’d be sitting on the most potent army ever created in the Bleach universe. Especially since it appears that the “donor” of their powers can recover them as Rukia has done. Which would mean that a single shinigami could theoretically spawn dozens of similar level human-shinigami hybrids.
I think he’s a Vaizard. Though they might share some similar features to Vaizards, Arrancar always have one feature they do not: a hole through their chests. Ichigo clearly doesn’t have this, not even when he’s in his pseudo-Hollow form. And although the narration captured in the screenshots above tell us how normal Hollows form (the soul shattering and reforming), we don’t know a thing about how Vaizards are made. We can’t draw any inferences either way.
I think the fact that Ichigo’s hollow self has a personality and voice of its own is a strike against him being any sort of “perfect hybrid.” If he were, both personalities and sets of powers would be integrated.
And Lupus — Ichigo getting his own Shinigami powers after losing Rukia’s is something that happened in manga volume 8, early in the series. Considering how often Kubo Tite calls back and reveals the significance of plot points set up dozens of chapters earlier, I don’t think you can seriously say Ichigo’s hybrid nature is something he pulled out of thin air when he ran out of ideas. Bleach wouldn’t be as popular as it is if it were put together in so shoddy a manner. If it were, it wouldn’t be Bleach, it would be… I dunno… Busou Renkin. ;^D Besides, we’ve just finally finished up 40+ anime episodes of what Bleach would be like without Kubo-sensei’s planning behind it. I’m content to sit back and see where he’s taking us, but I don’t think it’s going to be poorly planned, whatever it is.
(Re-submitted because the spam filter didn’t like the first place I suggested Tite pulled the hybrid idea out of… heh.)
Hmm. If anything I’d say he’s closer to being a Vaizard than an Arrancar.
I don’t think Ichigo is an arrancar because the process of turning Hollow into Arrancar is a very very long process and it needs the Hyougoku .
As for turning into Vizard , it seems that it doesn’t require Hyougoku , because if it does , i don’t see when Hirako ,inc got their hands on it .
Also , Ichigo wasn’t a normal spirit when Urahara did this since at the base , Ichigo has shinigami power from the fact that Isshin is a Shinigami . And the mask did form first..this might have been a hint by Kubo .
Well, id like to point out one phrase of Shinji. He said that once symptoms are shown you cant go back to normal, which means that being Vaizard is more like an illness?
Also Arrancars are usually made from hollow with help of someone(Aizen) but not by themselves.
If Ichigo is not a Vaizard ***Spoiler*** how vaizards’ methods did work on him? how they was able to help him control Hollow then?***/Spoiler***
Well, deffinately Ichigo is Vaizard, or very close to it.
wow those are some complex arguments but u guys are missing the easiest reason why ichigo is probably a vaizard and not an arancar. arancar all have broken masks all the time. the vaizard don’t wear masks all the time and have to bring it out to use that hollow power. arancar have to bring out their zanpaktus and release to use shinigami power. i’m not saying that he can’t be a hybrid as some of you state but he’s def not an arancar. especially wen u add the whole family history thing w/ ishin.
……………………………………….. SPOILER…….. the only exception maybe in last week’s manga when one of the arancar takes his mask off to reveal a familiar face………… SPOILER………………………
He seems to be hovering in the middle of both from what I’ve seen. There’s such a fine line between the two categories that it almost seems impossible to classify ichigo. The only reason I would label him a Vaizard is because of the fact that he doesn’t have the stereotypical hole in his chest. Although, I haven’t seen enough to make a real decisions since I’m a non manga reader.
I’m arguing for Ichigo being a Vaizard. Like I said, he exhibits all the signs of a Vaizard – the Shinigami in control, the unbroken mask, the permanently released Zanpaktou. My point about the mask still stands – We never see him with a broken mask. The Kanji for Arrancar is basically ‘broken mask’, as the Arrancars are hollows who have literally broken their mask and gained a Zanpaktou. Ichigo’s mask isn’t broke – he can’t be an Arrancar.
As for making him into a perfect hybird or whatever – if Kubo is going to go down that path, there’s no way we can predict it.
@lu77
who ever said that the guy from last week chapter was an Arrancar ? it’s not as if there it was said that all Espada must be Arrancar , i’m pretty sure the guy from last week is a Vizard
Hmm a arrancar, a hollow with shinigami abilities,don`t forget arrancar is with a hollow hole on the body, remember? last episode, i notice one is in the chest, another arrancar is on his throat…
Vaizards, shinigami with hollow in them. Remember when ichigo`s new classmate try to recuit him into his group? he said, they have a way to control the inner hollow? maybe ichigo just don`t know how to control it yet…
why don`t keep it simple? vaizards is just a group, they are shinigami with inner hollow..
Shinigami is just shinigami…
arrancar is hollow with soul slayer. don`t forget the HOLE =D
hmm don`t flame me k =D i`m just trying to share my views… =D
Oh ya, add on for arrancar, he removed his mask.
sorry for my bad grammer, i`m sleepy =D
to make things clear…sigh…im not saying i think ichigo is an arrancar…i wonder how many of you actually read my post instead of just guessing what i said from the title…i DONT think ichigo is an arrancar, i think he is neither arrancar or vaizard. at this moment, he displays vaizards attributes, though i believe if he were to be overcome by his hollow, he would not be the typical ‘vaizard-lost-to-inner-hollow’, instead, he would display more arrancar attributes. so yes, at the moment, he is more like a vaizard, but i believe he is NOT a vaizard.
well I think he’s not a vaizard or Arrancar either. We don’t really know at this point. From what we saw/read he’s more like a vaizard BUT he’s not the same. when he got his powers I think he only became shinigami because he’s will was to become shinigami at the time. Ichigo Can’t be(unless he died once and he’s dad brought him from ss) arcannar or vaziard. he wasn’t hollow or shinigami to begin with. he is a Human soul with powers of shinigami and hollow/hybrid.
PS: Ichigo has to be some thing special.he IS the main character.:)
mmmh, I recomend you to keep watching the anime, it won’t be a definitive answer but if you haven’t read the manga some answers will come to you Show Spoiler ▼
Olso, arrancar are said to be hollows who took off their mask (winning shinigami powers and a zapakutou on the way), and vaizards are supossed to be shinigamis who won hollow powers (I don’t remember if that’s been explained already, or if it will be explained later since I haven’t read the most recent chapters) I don’t think it was explained how shinigamis gets the hollow powers/mask, but it is said that they have to keep in control their iner hollow (so as ichigo)
What I mean is that maybe (just maybe) are those events that makes you doub of ichigo being a vaizard what makes him a vaizard (wich will be very ironic)
So as your’s this is just toughs and theories, I may (and are most likely) wrong
booo, pyro use spoiler tags next time please, and i have already read the manga, and yes i am watching the anime, but there are people who dont know and dont want to be spoiled
Ichigo is Really a Vaizard since His Father IS a Shinigami. It’s only that when he Learned his Transformation from Kisuke was too Harsh that it Left the Hollow a bit in him?
In any case, he won’t be an Arrancar since just like Wrex mentioned Arrancar is an Evolution from a Hollow itself!
Just because Ichigo doesn’t want to join the Vaizards doesn’t mean he’s an Arrancar~
But hey, it COULD be anything if Tite Kubo want’s it right? hahahaha XD
man3k: maybe his father is shinigami but HE isn’t. to be shinigami you need to DIE first and go to soul society. ichigo is ALIVE. maybe he got his fathers powers but he’s not a shinigami. anyway we have a lot more to learn. I hope we get some real plot development related to shinigamis/hollows soon. where is my AIZEN???
I’m wondering where I can order english versions of the latest bleach manga, I checked at my local borders and all they had was the chapter that’s around the end of the ss arc. Also, I think Ichigo is a Viazard, because of what he did. Think about that…
DJ what did Ichigo do?
If you’re talking about…
Show Spoiler ▼
Honestly, you all are very stupid. Ichigo IS a goddamn VIZARD. He always separated from his body to become….*insert drumroll.*…A SHINIGAMI. So basically..he had the powers of a Shinigami first. He only then tapped into the inner hollow when he was training with Urahara. This was when views and/or readers were like “What?” and then what did he do? Removed the mask, Guys. That makes him again, a goddamn Shinigami. Next time..carefully think back over the show/manga and then add your clues together. Jesus christ it was like listening to a bunch of people new to the show banter on. I swear if one of you said Orihime was smart, would probably make a lot more sense than this crap. Furthermore. His zanpaku-to has no soul, Zangetsu is a reflection of Ichigo HIMSELF. Next time you guys decide to ramble on about this stuff..know what the hell you are talking about. Remember…The King and The Horse.
This has been a tutoring, Sleeping Forest Style from Wind. Enjoy.
Wind: Looks like you’re taking it from the team.
Ok idiots, repeat after me Ichigo is a vizard. He trained with Urahara and his team to become a shinigami meaning Ichigo had to leave his body and puts KON in his body to keep him alive. So i say think people use the pea’s you got for brains think about it if a spirit leaves his body what happens to it people? it decays and gets destroyed. Now people tell me how you become a shinigami, most shinigami’s are made the known way by dieing and training their spirit energy and become a shinigami or you could do it ichigo’s way destroy your hollow b4 you become one.
This has been a tutoring,Sleeping Forest Teaching from OCEAN KING. NOW BE SWEPT IN YOUR FUTILE STUPIDITY!!
Wind: Looks like you’re taking it from the team.
Ocean: OOHH you pissed him off.
No matter what any of you say Ichigo is what he is and nothing will change that unless the author wants it to happen. Too bad and anyway the fact remains that his soul cutter has no real spiritual form.The form it had that looked some what like his uncle was a firmilure image that would help his character to advance in power and skill. Also the theory of the king and horse allows the manga reader and soon to be anime viewer to understand that once the hallow takes control the spiritual form of the soul cutter is no longer there. Ichigo must then dig deep inside of himself to draw on the power that the false spirit once help him to gain. Yet unlike the first time Ichigo has the confidence and know how to beat down his hallow personality and take the power he will need in the up coming arc. Anyway stop wasting time and just take it as it is until some change is made by the write, well no sorry since the anime had an entire filler season the anime only viewers will be exposed to far more changes that will dilute the story and cause some possible comfusion but I am a manga reader so it really makes no difference to me and YES you are taking it from the team.
(this has been a wast of our time and we will be back so lets smarten up and start just enjoying the good anime goodness as it comes).
haha, angry sleeping forest, it looks to me, and im sure to a lot of other people as well, that you are in fact that stupid and idiotic person here. how old are you? 12? 13? if youre older than that then youre a disgrace to all people your age. u should actually consider the opposing facts before going out and blurting out what you think. it really makes you look dumb, which you probably are. and calling other people stupid will surely make them call you idiotic back, like me, though most people would just ignore you if youre so stuck up yourself. and no, the guy who draws/writes bleach has never said Ichigo is a vaizard. before the end of soul society, ichigo was a shinigami, and kubo probably never even had the thought of making him a vaizard. but it doesnt change the fact that at the time, everyone agreed and accepted him as a shinigami. but what now? everyone thinks he is a vaizrd. and that can definitely change.
lol angry sleeping forest…. one thing to note…. get ur bloody facts right before you comment on stuff in any anime blog or forums…..
ichigo can exist without his body if his body gets destroyed he would just be a spirit cause his soul chain is broken this means theortically he’s already died
and the idea of removing his mask….. i think it’s rather a compression of his hollow powers at that time, not to show him as a shinigami
and he’s not a shinigami it doesn’t mean that a guy dress in black and carry a sword is a shinigami..lol…. the idea is just dumb……lol… in the first place… his soul was just using rukia’s power to fight……lol.. a guy in black with a zanpaktou is not equal a shinigami… a shinigamai is one where one has died, entered soul society, and did the bloody exam… you ass……get ur facts right…….
and when did zangestu don’t ahve a soul GET YOUR BLOODY FACTS RIGHT YOU ARSE….
what a complete waste of time reading ur BS angry shitting forest, after all you ARE NOT CLEAR OF YOUR FACTS…..god damm it….. danny was kind to you not to say bad things…. NEXT TIME WRITE WITH YOUR BRAIN NOT WITH YOUR P0NIS
to me, ichigo is sort of like imcomplete and doesnt fit 2 be any of those. =)
in my opinion, he’s weaker den both type: arrancar and vaizard. he juz is stronger becoz of his reiatsu overflowing.
well.. i was juz curious abt 1 thing onli. how does shinigami whu passed the exams gets a zanpakutou? i mean, ichigo’s appear right after he took over rukia’s power.
well, i agree wit jinyamoto anyway. a guy in black is not definitely shinigami. as far as i remember, orihime, chad and gang wore the black suit too.
Where to start and sorry to say there are multiple persons who will be useing the angry sleeping forsest title. Sad to say today u get me one of the ones who lacks the ability to spell, anyway look and take it nice and easy this is anime and there will always be damed opinions and if someone states there opinion take it as it is dispite name callign and such. take it appart if u like and say what u will but do it constructivly and we each have our own facts. Age should not play a part in the fact that I and the other persons useing this name feel the way we feel and say what u will but I am no 14 year old and so what if I am older, what difference does it make. Not like anyone of u will ever know me and or anyoen els on this site. This is a space to put out constuctive thought and we all have done that so lets get it straight take it like who ever is sayign it is saying what ever they are saying and if u would like to reply to this post reply to the Fang. O ya one mroe thing the idea that Ichigo needs to die to become a Death God is questionable becuase when he entered his training with Urahara he was told that there is another way to attain the power of a Death God and so he did. He is not a Death God just because of the clothing but because of the way his power is used and works unless later on in either the manga and or the anime it states other wise it appears that his power funtions like that of a Death God much so similar to a Vizard. Wind is an angry guy lol wonder how he will chew me out for being soft lol. Anyway lets also take note of the fact that ichigo is described as a tap which could mean that his power was always there always flowing and all the power he took from Rukia did was make him aware of what he had also not taken note of. The likely hood of him being something other than either a Vizard and or a Death God is realy high but right now who the hell knows anythign can happen as said by another individual who posted above yet still I still believe he is a Vizard because of the none existant soul within his sould cutter and the hallow that lay within his being.
fang, thats more like a normal comment there. try and convince your friends why the previous comments are clearly not constructive, with the name calling and acting like they know everything as a fact
Anger gets teh best of u and when it comes to a good conversation things will always get heated and beign able to not name call and all that is nice but we all know when u realy want to get into anything u will always say exactly whats on your mind even if u do not have all the fatcs (not to say that i am for or agaainst the others) and where this goes will egt interesting once they read my reply lol. Ohter than that I realy do hope that the filler season will not interfear with the story as much as it already has but then again filler seems to be whats sellign these days so i have little hope and the resolving of this disgustion may take way longer than it needs to ebcause of that fact.
Show Spoiler ▼
Bierrez: no one is currently right or wrong at the moment, since no one knows at the moment. however, i am with you on what you said!
It is like this:
1. Ichigo has a unbeliveable reitsu, because his father descents from the Soul Society. But until he dies, he is [i]only[/i] a human.
2. In a moment of despair Rukia gives him her Shinigami powers. HE does not possess any abilities himself; he is NOT an actual Shinigami. Look closely, Ichigo uses an unfamiliar zanpakuto not his own Zangetsu, because it is not his power.
NB*: Zanpakuto is a reflection of the soul. -> his soul does not possess Shinigami powers hence he cannot have a “soul-owned” zanpakuto. (*sorry I am repetitive*)
3. You have to die and go to Soul Society (+ training) to become a Shinigami. When Urahara wishes to make him a Shinigami and give him Shinigami abilities, where Ichigo’s fate chain is detached from his body, NOW making it possible for him to become a Shinigami. Urahara was aware of the upcoming problems with the hollows and his invention’s abilties to make them into Arrancar. He deliberately created this super-strong hybrid (AND had amazing reitsu to begin with. Do you remember in the beginning it was said that a human soul like his only comes approximately every 1.000 years.).
4. He is definatly, no way in hell an Arrancar, but if you remember correctly he becomes a hollow before actually becoming a Shinigami. He rips off the mask, but it remains.
You guys keep on talking about the Arrancar having a torn mask and the vaizards having a “portable” one. Ichigo only has half a mask, a ripped mask: he is new race.
I am sorry if I have just repeated everything you guys have said.
sum makes sense here
glad to see more people agreeing with me in that Ichigo is neither arrancar nor vaizard!
Sum, This has turned into something of a mini flame war but I would like to point out the inaccuracies in your facts:
2. In a moment of despair Rukia gives him her Shinigami powers. HE does not possess any abilities himself; he is NOT an actual Shinigami. Look closely, Ichigo uses an unfamiliar zanpakuto not his own Zangetsu, because it is not his power.
NB*: Zanpakuto is a reflection of the soul. -> his soul does not possess Shinigami powers hence he cannot have a “soul-owned? zanpakuto. (*sorry I am repetitive*)
3. You have to die and go to Soul Society (+ training) to become a Shinigami. When Urahara wishes to make him a Shinigami and give him Shinigami abilities, where Ichigo’s fate chain is detached from his body, NOW making it possible for him to become a Shinigami. Urahara was aware of the upcoming problems with the hollows and his invention’s abilties to make them into Arrancar. He deliberately created this super-strong hybrid (AND had amazing reitsu to begin with. Do you remember in the beginning it was said that a human soul like his only comes approximately every 1.000 years.).
4. He is definatly, no way in hell an Arrancar, but if you remember correctly he becomes a hollow before actually becoming a Shinigami. He rips off the mask, but it remains.
You guys keep on talking about the Arrancar having a torn mask and the vaizards having a “portable? one. Ichigo only has half a mask, a ripped mask: he is new race.
Point 2: He does not, at this point, have Zangetsu because he simply never released his Zanpaktou, not any of the reasons you’re stating. In order to release your Zanpaktou you need to talk to it and know its name, and it was only after going through Urahara’s training that he accomplished both. If I remember correctly (I could be wrong here though) Ichigo met Zangetsu once during the time when he had Rukia’s power.
Point 3: You have to die and go to Soul Society (+ training) to become a Shinigami is untrue. A Shinigami is just a soul that possesses special power. They can possess that power even when they’re alive, but it’s just never manifest because the soul never detaches from the body, except in special circumstances like in the case of Ichigo. Remember Kenpachi and Ikaku both had Zanpaktous before they officially became Shinigami.
Point 4: Ichigo is, first and foremost like I said in the above two points, a Shinigami. Even when he lost Rukia’s power, Urahara said that he had his own, hidden power, which are probably a result of him being a child of Isshin, and supress when he stole Rukia’s power – normal people simply turn into a hollow when their chain is broken, but Ichigo found his hideen Shinigami power, the Zangetsu, and turned into a Shinigami instead. Ichigo never has ‘half a mask’. Every time he breaks it, it comes back whole and complete. The mask is the symbol of a hollow – whether you’re Vaizard, Arrancar or a simple, normal hollow, and Ichigo’s mask is showing that a hollow exsists inside Ichigo’s soul.
I don’t think Ichigo’s some special new race, but simply a Vaizard. I’m not altogether ruling out the possibility of some new-fangled-super-hybrid being though, but at this stage there is no evidence to support that claim, except for the fact that Ichigo turned into a hollow during Urahara’s training, and that’s really very debatable.
Lmfao
Why the hell does it matter to all of you so much? I’d really just rather watch the anime, or read the manga, and see where it goes. Since none of us are the author (i dont think), theres really no way this argument could ever come to a close. Its interesting to read the opinions of people on this, but like i said theres really no point to it.
Alright, I just have to say that what happened is this: Rukia gave kurosaki her powers so that he could save his family. After Byakuya removed his powers in his current form (at that time) he lost Rukia’s powers. Urahara took Ichigo under his wing and said “…But he failed to see that you have shinigami powers of your own.” That statement there implies that he is a shinigami. The thing with his mask coming out is the hollow that was always in his soul being awakened. If you think about it, it makes sense that his hollow could not awaken if his shinigami soul was not yet awoken. He attains his shinigami powers from Isshin. Kaien, or Aroniro, is not a Vaizard. My reasoning is thus: he was possesed by a hollow and it was killed, but the hollow regenerates itself back in HM. After regeneration, the stronger soul, Kaien, took appearance. We know not what the mask symbolizes, but he is not Vaizard because his reiatsu would be quite large all the time.
Sorry for spelling (rushed this post)
Lupus:
Now that I have read my post again you are right in some of your points.
His senate only looked that way in the beginning because he had not called out its name.
My friends say the same thing as you: “I don’t think Ichigo’s some special new race, but simply a Vaizard”, but I still not 100% convinced, but then again you said yourself “I’m not altogether ruling out the possibility of some new-fangled-super-hybrid being though.”
Steve is the one who makes most sense to me right now, but yeah, I forgot some important pieces of information in my arguments.
btw: I know this is pointless static, but we can still discuss stuff until we get the “heads up”
* senate = zanpakuto! big ass spelling mistake, sorry
Like it was previously stated this is all fluff in the wind at this point. But I agree with many statements like for the moment ichigo is a vaizard or more vaizard-like. Personally I like and am hoping for the super-hybrid deal. Besides, doesn’t everyone always say, What/Who (the hell) is he? I just wanted to put my two cents in.
IIRC, Urahara was the first one to come up with the idea that a shinigami/hollow hybrid would be the perfect fighter.
It’d be pretty ironic if he ended up creating a perfect hybrid completely by accident.
this is stupid, ichigo is a vaizard, the simple fact is if he was an arrancar he would have a hole somewhere…and arrancar do not have a shikai or bankai, well they sorta have a shikai but it’s different. also if ichigo was an arrancar he would have a part of his mask hanging around CONSTANTLY as in he couldn’t take it off and it comes back..NO! it would stay there forever.
i think he is an vaizard although u do raise a very gd point about him bein both (born shinigami and hollow at the same time) but 3 things i can think of:
1) the creators of bleach say hes vaizard
2) if his shinigami powrs are in control doesnt that mean that since hes a vaizard then his shinigami side has to be in control?
3) if his dads a shinigami then it does actually mean he HAS to be a shinigami. plus if u havent noticed ichigo’s dad is dead asell so sumhow u dont HAVE to be dead to be a shinigami
it obvious dat ichigo is a vizard yareyare
The real question should be are Vaizards and Arrancars the same thing???
If
Vaizard: A shinigami who obtains hollow powers.
Arrancar: A hollow who obtains shinigami powers.
then
Vaizard = Arrancar
Right simple logic says its true but i know they all have different abilities.
Vaizard totally don’t have those holes where they’ve lost their chain.
hi lol…… i like bleach…. i think fun.. lol now i sound like a mexican..umm lemme see were should i start who thinks that ichigo will ever be a part of the viazard “”or axxepted as one of them”"// or want to be accepted as one of them… and if ichigo say where to turn into a hallow then remove his mask and turn to a arrancar will he still he gain sanity and choose which path he wants to pursue… just curious
and who is stronger a viazard or arrancar and please prove with facts….
In my point of view, Ichigo would be in between both, since he became a hollow at the same time he became a shinigami. I think urahara intended this to happen just to see what kind of power would he have. But, as Danny has said, we do now know until Kubo-san decides to reveal what he really is.
actually, think of this for a sec. When Renji fought Ichigo the first time while trying to capture Rukia, he had the shinigami powers of Rukia. I remember that the moment Renji was about to kill Ichigo his spiritual energy and spiritual pressure rose greatly. After that he became aggresive, if you saw the episode he kept making faces similar to the hollow’s insanity looks, grinning, smiling and smirking, his eyes changed and talked with a hoarse voice. My point is that this was before he got his shinigami powers back and at the same time obtaining his viazard powers. So how did he have this power before Uraharas experiment? Also, the fact that he could be an arrancar is possible due to that his masked formed first, his was wrapped and constricted the same way the Grand Fisher was when turned into an Arrancar. I think the prosess Urahara made was able to make the “perfect arrancar”, in other words, an arrancar with it’s mask completely removed and its hole romved aswell. Remember that Ichigo did become part hollow when he then retained his shinigami form.
Out of my imagination imagine this. Human -> Shinigami -> vaizard but not controlled -> consumed and turned into a hollow -> hollow made a perfect Arrancar = abomination any1??????? thx for your time
heyy
i think arrancars have to be hollows first (as in a complete hollow with mask and deformed body) and then gain shinigami powers, remove its mask, and become an arrancar.
and vaizards are like people who have *lived the shinigami life* and then gain an inner hollow, or people who became both at the same time (turning into ollow but dosnt want to, hence transforms into a half hollow, half shinigami). *note that i di not say was a shinigami*
oh and… vaizards retain a more human like form with almost no retorts.
and arrancar cant obtain BANKAI (i think) and transform their bodys when they release instead of their sword.
BUT… THEN AGAIN THIS IS **MOSTLY** AN ASSUMPTION OF THE DIFFERENCES THE ARRANCAR AND TH VAIZARDS **NOTE I DID SAY MOSTLY NOT IS**
im sorry if its confusing ill correct the * and the ** parts to make it more understandable.
*note: I did not say “were shinigamis”*
**note: I said “mostly” which does not mean all of this is an assumption**
Ok I dont know if u guys heard but ichigo lost the powers rukia gave him why the hell do u think i had to go in that hole to become a shinigami again.So then he got “HIS” shinigami powers by the training(but no one really knew so Joushiro the a captain of the 13 squads gave him a shinigami representitive badge).And the reason he is a vaizard is because he was transforming to a shinigami at the same time as the process of becomin a hollow started.And he was able to become a shinigami again was because he had shinigami blood from his dad.And why he isnt a arrancar is because of this process.
Human->Shinigami->Becomes Shinigami At Same Time As Hollow->He Became A Vaizard(others had to use a forbidden technique)
And this is the process of being an arrancar…
Human->Hollow->Becomes Overpowered->Gains Shinigami Powers->Remove Mask->Arrancar…
Its funny reading the comments…
I see a lot of people who think they are right, yet have plenty of flaws in their statements and probably didn’t even read the counter arguments…lol. Ah well, what can I do? xD
When reading this it makes me think cause i been trying to solve this problem also. So u met got a point so thinking about the way u see it your statement is true he was not a hollow or a death god he got them at the same time.Show Spoiler ▼
I Dont have a problem with people speculating. None at all. But you have to realize that is what most of you are doing. Even the MAIN POST is a speculation.
Just read Bleach again and you will see why he is, sorry to say, less of an arrancar.
The reason is that currently Ichigo has a “Dominant Shinigami” side but with hollow powers. This IS the definition of a Vaizard, whether you like it or not and I am sorry to say that nothing you say can change that. That is a FACT in the bleach universe.
While the arrancar are the other way around with a “Dominant Hollow” side. BUT, Ichigo may become a version of an arrancar, if the Hollow inside him takes complete control and consumes ichigos soul(he will then get the hole in the chest that some of you talk about). He will then be, whitout possible denial, an hollow with shinigami powers just like them.
But if that happens is yet to be revealed. As it is now, Ichigo fills none of the requierments of being an arrancar.
Im not really saying he is either. I have my own ideas, but if we follow the rules of the Bleach universe, he is MORE of a Vaizard than an Arrancar.
Who’s saying anything about Ichigo being an arrancar? Did I say (the post, written by me) that I think Ichigo is an arrancar? No I didn’t. I’m not saying I’m right about what I’m said, I’m not saying that you are wrong either. It is as you said, everyone is just speculating.
Ichigo is realy Shinigami representatives.
Because, if he want to became Shinigami he would be dead first, but he not. And if he want to became Hollow he would go dead first, but he not.
He has a power of hollow when Hogyoku in the Rukia’s body. We know about this thing. So anyone in shinigami if he/she got the power of Hogyoku then he/she become a vaizard. And a hollow become a arrancar.
Ichigo is closely to a vaizard, because a vaizard (Gang of Hirako), haven’t died yet. Either he is not a shinigami. Or we says, is he a pure vaizard?
I prefer Ichigo is Shinigami representatives. If jobs to be a shinigami is end, maybe he lost all his power. Maybe.
Just wanted to give my opinion on a probably dead topic.
The way i see it is that everyone in the show has the ability to become a hallow or shinigami. They usually become a hallow when the soul is completely devoured, and they become a shinigami by training the soul. So, a shinigami can still develop hallow powers because it is still inside them, but a hallow cannot become a shinigami “normally” because it has already devoured the soul (this is where Urahara’s invention comes in).
I think that when Ichigo borrowed the shinigami powers, it trained his soul enough that he could pull out his own shinigami powers when it was forced to.
So, for a vaizard, because they already had strong shinigami powers, they could train their inner hallow but still be in control. But in Ichigo’s case, since the hallow and shinigami forms were awoken at roughly the same time they are both equally strong inside him (neither is necessarily dominant) so he isn’t necessarily a vaizard because he cannot “control” his hallow powers. But it seems when his hallow form takes over, he could be an arrancar because it can control his shinigami powers…
So, i think when he is in his shinigami form, he is “just” a shinigami because to use his hallow powers he has to give control to his hallow form, he doesn’t control it himself.
I think i repeated myself a lot… but oh well… this is my opinion of vizard/arrancar question for now… enjoy
Correct me if im wrong but what’s the deal with ichigo’s half mask. I’ve noticed the other vaizards with full masks, but il just refer to ichogo’s fight with rukias brother, when the hollow kicked in, I think he is somewhat different.
Show Spoiler ▼
We’re not making it our lives. if you had the time to write that unnecessary post to a dead topic, we have the time to discuss it.
And I do not agree on Arrancars being hollows gained shinigami powers(at least the ones aizen created) even if manga itself says so because what they gain is not shinigami power but the ability to seal their own powers when not using and conserving spiritual power that would go to maintaining hollow form. and in my opinion ichigo would not lose his shinigami powers even if the hollow had consumed him because while he completely transformed into a hollow his hollow self had zangetsu in his hand(this would mean if hollow had won he would be a hollow with shinigami powers making him perfect hibrid, arrancars are not really hybrid since their zanpakutous doesn’t have anything more than their own orijinal hollow power)… and its not like ichigo would completely disappear, he would be suppressed instead.
it is obvious that ichigo is a vaizard. there r a few reasons some more convincing than other. one is ichigo was origanally a soul reaper after rukia gave him her powers and even though they were hers to begin with as they entered his body they became his. next, ichigo did not become a hollow and a soul reper at the same time as i recall. i remember him getting his soul reaper powers before he became a hollow. and last of all vaizard are called the masked versus the arrancar being called the unmasked. arrancar cannot summon their mask back unless they release their zanpaktou while vaizard can call upon their masks willingly at any time. this information is proof that ichigo is a vaizard because while training with the other vaizard he calls upon his mask without calling his swords name or turning into bankai form for that matter. the only thing he does to bring out the mask is pull his hand over his face.
I think and hope that Ichigo is a new being neither Vaizard nor Arrancar.
I think that because of three reasons:
1. I think the theory of him becoming hollow and shinigami is true.
but more important:
2. Everybody says “the hollow inside of him” but is that a normal hollow??
He has no hole, nor mask and looks just like Ichigo except that he’s
white. I think that’s strange.
3. Also I think it’s strange that Ichigo is so incredible strong. Until
now everyone just said it’s because his father is shinigami and his
mother had also powers. Kuchiki byakuya is part of a noble shinigami
family which would mean both parents are also shinigamis, but still
after a few days of training Ichigo is already as strong as he is and
can already use bankai what not even all members of the noble families
can!
I just thought about a 4 reason…. Why gets Inoue and Sado power just because they are being close to Ichigo? that just doesn’t seems to be normal even for a shinigami…
Show Spoiler ▼
there are actully 2 ichigos one soul reaper/hollow
Ichigo is still a whole. So it’s pretty clear that he can’t be considered an arrancar. Whether or not he is a vaizard is unclear though. Sorry if I repeated any info.
Also who else wants to see more of ichigo’s father?
ok ok ok, lets just breath in and breath out…
1st… Ichigo’s powers as a Shinigami were already present at the begining of the series… when Ichigo stabbed himself with Rukia’s Zanpakutou he drained Rukia of her Shinigami’s powers (whereas only half would normally be taken). This happened because when Rukia’s Shinigami powers entered Ichigo’s soul it awakened Ichigo’s latent Shinigami powers… so when Byakuya stabbed Ichigo on the Soul Link, thus effectively stripping Ichigo from Rukia’s power, Ichigo only lost the ability to manifest himself as a Shinigami (mostly because, as the Soul Link was severed, he lost the ability to use his Reiatsu).
When Urahara Kisuke rescued Ichigo and trained him, it was for the sole purpose of:
step 1: make him regain his Reiatsu
step 2: allow him to use his reiatsu
step 3: make him master the use of his reiatsu
so… when Ichigo was thrown into the Shattered Shaft with his Inga no Kusari broken, he was already a shinigami (or else he wouldn’t be able to communicate with his Zanpakutou) he just didn’t possess the ability to manifest himself… thus drastic measures where necessary.
the reason why the choice between becoming a Shinigami or a Hollow was given is pretty simple… a Hollow is nothing but the reverse of a Shinigami…
now… about the ‘Inner Hollow’, it’s true it doesn’t have a hole but it is so because it’s not the physical manifestation… if you recall, Ichigo’s inner hollow doesn’t have a mask to… why? because when a Shinigami turns into a Vaizard, is the Shinigami’s powers (aka the Zanpakutou) that become the Hollow (thus a hollow inside a Shinigami) so the inner hollow is nothing more than a distorted version of the Shinigami…
about Ichigo’s strength… the secret about Ichigo’s strength is that he has an abnormably big amount of reiatsu and he can’t control it… so, while all captains (except Zaraki) compress their reiatsu to make it more efficient, Ichigo’s just flow rampant giving him peaks of both great strength and weakness (as Ulquiorra stated)… that mass of unstable reiatsu is alo what made Sado and Orihime develop their own powers, that besides being “similar to shinigami’s” as stated by Urahara “are far more complete”.
about Arrancar, they are Hollows with the powers of Shinigami… though is true that they only seal their masks in Zanpakutou’s shape, those Zanpakutou act as a Vaizard’s mask. while the Arrancar are on their unmasked state, they can use techniques similar to Shinigami (sonido/shunpo) and when they unleash their Zanpakutou they recieve their Hollow powers (cero)…
Vaizard work on the same way… when they are on unmasked state they can use the shinigami powers… when they put their mask on they can also use Hollow power…
about the mask and the whole dominant deal… “So, i think when he is in his shinigami form, he is “just? a shinigami because to use his hallow powers he has to give control to his hallow form, he doesn’t control it himself.” quoting an earlier comment from someone… Ichigo is indeed a Vaizard… all the Vaizards carry on their lifes without masks (their hollow powers) but still are Vaizard… just because they don’t use it doesn’t mean they can’t or are unable to use it… it’s basically like riding a bike… even if you don’t ride for a year, it’s still there…
and for the record all Shinigami are dead yes… and so are Hollow’s, Vaizard (since they were Shinigami before being Vaizard) and Arrancar… it so happens that Ichigo is also a Shinigami because he IS dead… Tessai killed him… the reason why he uses his body is because ‘why would you spend money on a Gigai when you still have your own body…?’ (not quote) … plus, Vaizards use a Gigai (that’s why they don’t use robes and are ’seeable’… its just that their Gigai allows them to use their powers without having to shed the Gigai first…
so here… speculation free facts about the whole Baizaado, Arankaru, Horou, Shinigami business… anything else just pay close atention to the show and read some background story along with manga…
any questions about Bleach e-mail me… I’d be glad to help
maxleingod@hotmail.com
sore jya, matta ne!
“Its implied that Urahara and Isshin might be responsible for some sort of eugenics project that produced Ichigo.”
I think Isshin made the most contribution… with the sperm and all… and remember Isshin is already a couple of thousand years old but still remaind his body… a living one at that, since he was able to breed… so the same may go with Ichigo… while he is dead (Shinigami are dead…) he still retains his body
Technically, Ichigo is a vaizard. The other vaizard call him one, the way his powers manifest are vaizard-like. He dons a mask and can’t keep it on for more than 15 seconds which means that he couldn’t possibly be a hollow because hollows have to force their masks off in the first place.
i still say hes a vaizard because when an a arrancar releases his zanpaktou it grows somthing like armor that releases its full power if ichigo was a “perfect” hybrid dont you think he might have both the sword and armor
If Ichigo is purely a vizard why does his apperance along with his sword change when he uses bankai?
i think that ichigo is the son Show Spoiler ▼
you may as well just read them…^^^
@mangator- what u stated to lupus “Ichigo getting his own Shinigami powers after losing Rukia’s” not getting his own powers but he already had them.
Episode 19 at 14 minutes 40 sec zangetsu directly quotes “He failed to see that you have your own death god powers” meaning that ichigo had he’s own death god pwers even before he become a hollow.
Even so, ichigo has high spirtual in the beginning which allowed him to sense ghost. If you think about, this power came from somewhere which most likely be from his own death god powers.
Therefore in the end, ichigo can’t be Arrancar
any vizard who failed the training would have become a hollow… and not an arrancar because they will display the pesonalities of a normal hollow, or even a menos grande… just not arrancar (just like ichigo was just mindlessly attacking everyone he could, but he was sealed in a barrier so only one person at a time, and yes arrancar means broken mask, and he had a full mask, so he can’t be classified as an arrancar even if he lost to his hollow side)
shown in the anime already, hirako said something to himself like “ichigo, you’re going to really turn into a hollow now…”
also, only 1 of the vizards didn’t need any training to subdue their hollow (the girl in the alien suit), the rest all took a certain amount of time to subdue it, so if you’re saying that if a vizard that lost to his/her hollow side would be in-between, then any vizard could’ve become in-between, not just ichigo
Show Spoiler ▼
oh yeah and replying to one comment, so what if ichigo’s appearance and blade changes when he bankai’s? renji does that too, does that make him a vizard or arrancar or anything even related to them?
Well, I guess this post has come a long way since the author has posted and maybe he has changed his mind or he still sways towards the Arr part (got bored of reading them all and skipped to bottom)
Main argument:
Arrancar vs. Vaizard
Author says that he must die to become shinigami. Well, you must die to become a hollow also. An Arrancar is a stronger version of a hollow. So I’m pretty sure you would technically have to be dead to become an Arrancar also.
Ichigo’s father – Shinigami – He has kids . . . so do you really HAVE to die to become one? Someone is going to say “nobody ever stole his father’s powers that we know of”. Well . . . Ichigo still has to release from his body, so he isn’t dead.
Some people say that he is NOT a vaizard. I noticed in one of the episodes that a vaizard pulled out a knife-type weapon to fight hollow version of ichigo and the blade resembled Ichigo’s (color wise). Coincidence? Maybe.
The story is pretty interesting, so I am pretty sure that the creator of this particular manga turned anime will continue to write as good as he has done.
Daniel, I never thought Ichigo was an arrancar. It was just a topic I came up with to talk about. (I’m the author btw) I don’t blame you for reading the comments, since there are certainly a lot, but to make things clear, when I wrote the post, and even now, I believe Ichigo is some form of hybrid between Hollow and Shinigami. As in, an equal hybrid, instead of, for example, an Arrancar where the hollow is in control. Ichigo is interesting because technically, he is a human with both Hollow and Shinigami abilities. Unless you argue he’s already dead.
hes a VIZARD ichigos dad is a shinigami and even if he wouldn’t have taken rukias powers he would have eventually recieved them
In my personal opinion, i dont think he is a hollow nor a Vizard. I do admit if i had to pick one or the other, i would choose Vizard. He isnt a Vizard becuase he can use his Shikai and Bankai. Im nto saying Vizards CANT use shikai or bankai, but with they acception of Kensei Muguruma who used it whne Ichigo went full hollow in order to save Lisa. (Or so i remember). He isnt a Arrancar, as many others have stated, becuase he doesnt have a hole in his body, atleast no wear on his torso, where most of them are. (Grimmjow’s being at his next, for example). As for the idea that Ichigo was bred to become a Shinigami/Ryoka, I dont think that either. His powers are similar to a Vizards, but until we know how Shinji, Kensei, Lisa and the others became Vizards, then we wont know what he is. I mean Shinji invited him BECUASE he had a hollow mask, without knowing how he got it.
well im not too sure i originally believed that ichigo was both as he had become shinigami internally and his exterior was turning into a hollow in that one episode however upon reading the manga Show Spoiler ▼
So far in this discussion i have found the most logical view from Danny and i also agree with his theory where ichigo is the supposed technical “hybrid” between being a Shinigami and Hollow. Considering when ichigo is getting back his shinigami powers in his mind-space and Zangetsu (so far known as ???)talks to ichigo to find his shinigami/Zangetsu’s power inside the hundreds of falling boxes before he loses his struggle from being hollow. So ichigo is neither hollow nor shinigami since he even calls himself “Substitute shinigami” during the beginning and also (sorry to repeat)ichigo has to literally die to become either hollow or shinigami where he doesnt really die when his chain of fate is cut since he is still able to gain back his powers without needing to go to Soul society since (as mentioned before)Byakuya only destroyed Rukia’s shinigami powers in ichigo instead of his own potential power as mentioned by Zangetsu. However during ichigo’s battle with his inner hollow (arrancar arc) its is said that zangetsu is his hollow and his hollow is zangetsu so its like whatever is the most dominant would be person talking to ichigo so its more like ichigo being the balance between the the two extremes like u know the “force” lol thats about it so basically speaking i agree with danny (please dont flame me)
arrancar—- a hollow taking off mask to obtain shinigami powers
i think ichigo is an arrancar…..because when his soul chains were cut off, he became a hollow, then he resisted and took off his hollow mask….then he gets his shinigami powers….
but if he’s an arrancar, where is the hole that arrancars usually have?
i just came across this blog and would like to correct a few things that u might have missunderstood.
First, when u said ” If you recall, Ichigo gains shinigami powers from Rukia, though he never actually becomes a shinigami (he is not dead, is he?)” this is only half right. rukia didnt give him shinigami powers. however, she did passed her powers into him wich helped unlock the shinigami powers he had with in himself. i forgot what episode was it but Zangetsu explained this to him. Also dont forget who ichigo’s father is. Ichigo is the son of a shinigami so that alone tells u that he has the bloodline of a deathgod. im pretty sure that ichigo’s sisters are potential shinigami’s also. Now technicaly. if ur chain is broken, you are dead. so ichigo died during his training and that is why he became a shinigami first. the hollow mask he had on was just proof that he was a vizard. Urahara pointed out that when transforming to a hollow ur body takes form before the face and with ichigo it went the other way around. so He is a shinigami.
second: the time ichigo’s dad and Urahara spoke (after ichigo’s dad killed the grand fisher) Urahara mentioned that the “masked wizards(vizards)” are in contact with him. hinting that ichigo’s “kin” are trying to explain his true identity. Ask yourself “why would the vizards want to get in contact with ichigo if he wasnt a vizard?”. im sure if he ichigo was really a arrancar he would of had a hole in his chest,had to become a hollow first and would use his soulslayer in the manner that the arrancar do.
imo, ichigo is a vizard, and the king of the vizards at that…
; ]
Hey i just realized that when ichigo got his powers from rukia that she still had the diamond (sry i forgot what its name is)in her so ichigo could have inherited some of the diamonds powers making him the “perfect hybrid” as you have been saying. just thought you would like to know..
plz right back before 6:00 today or Thursday. (plz don’t flare me)
thats very true.however. it takes a captin level shinigami to activate it and a year or so for it to take its course.not only that the “diamond” was in her faux body not her soul. that is a pretty good point though. im up to date with the manga’s and there is no indication that had any effect on ichigo’s power.
yeah i haven’t watched past ichigo going to huco mundo so i really don’t know that much but i do seem to remember that when rukia gave him his powers that she was only going to give him half of her powers and he took almost all of them. Also from close observation i noticed that when using the “diamond” it gos black and sort of crawls up the user,just like when ichigo’s halo tries to come out. I know that you have seen how good his halo is at fighting so who is to say that when ichego got his powers that the halo sort of took in some of the “diamond’s” powers. oh yeah i was thinking when i was typing this and aisan sama took the “diamond” out of her death god form. Danny if you think something is wrong about my argument please tell me.
oh yeah sorry for sort of changing the sub ject. I think he could be come an arancar if he wanted to but it would have to meen that he is ditching all of his friends.
hey mandy what if he doesn’t need a hole to be an arancar because he started as a shimigami and not a halo,because in order to become a halo you have to die and reform as a halo but he died and re formed as a shinigami wearing a halos mask,and i think that you would only get the hole from starting as a halo.also ichigo’s halo in all of the battles i never saw his hole in his chest just saying. i think that vizard and arancar is just showing that both shinigami and halo are trying to reach the ultimate power.the “perfect hybrid”
Arrancars are hollows that have removed their masks. Ichigo is vaizard since he didn’t remove his. And it grows back. Also arrancars have their bankai turn them into hollow looking creatures. When ichigo goes bankai he doesn’t turn hollow.
I think he is on his way to becoming a vaizard (and an obscenely powerful one at that)
I’ll be noting several points that were commented upon in previous posts:
1) Rukias powers?
He lost those when Byakuya did his shunpo+stab combination, hence the need to be trained by Urahara. While the phrase “regain your shinigami powers” is mentioned, it’s not the power Rukia gave him, since Urahara comments on Ichigos own shinigami powers that are lieing dormand (waiting for his death I suppose)
2) Both a hollow and a shinigami?
When in that hole, Ichigo was a normal (as normal as one can call Ichigo) human spirit. It is very important to note that he did *not* become a hollow. By Uraharas words, he started transforming into a hollow, but the fact that the mask formed first, rather than the body reshaping itself showed he was fighting it. And he did, in the last moment, manage to locate Zangetsu, and immediately stop the hollow transformation, becoming a shinigami
3) There seems to be some confusion as to the formation of arrancar?
It’s explained quite clearly in the manga, and by now even in the anime (though not that well yet, wait for it hehe) – the dog-like arrancar was clearly explained to have achieved arrancar status purely by absorbing huge amounts of reiatsu
Show Spoiler ▼
There are significant things left unexplained, and I think intentionally so:
1) Why did the hollow mask keep reappearing? – maybe the normal process of becoming a vaizard?
2) The vaizard group seems very much alive, or at least visible to any human, seemingly without bothering with fake bodies (at least none are mentioned) while Ichigo needs to exit his body to use any of his abilities
3) Ichigo never reverts to using his insane speed during bankai – is he scared he might shatter his bones like when fighting Byakuya – I thought that was due to Senkei? Shouldn’t that have been fixed with the mask? The speed seemed a such a huge part of his bankai power that it’s rather strange he fights slowly in later episodes – and the arrancar obviously aren’t that fast, as shown when Rangiku beats their sonido with a shunpo
4) Ichigo is referred to as a pureblood by the fisher in the episode he gets arrancar-ized … does that mean his mother was a shinigami? Not exlucded really, since he doesn’t know about his fater yet either.
5) The vaizards insistence on lack of identity: “It doesn’t matter who I am” – Shinji, and even Ichigo’s hollow replies only “Who knows?” and “I don’t have a name” to being asked for who or what he is.
6) The two hollow versions of Ichigo: Due to the voice and speach patterns we know that the hollow-self of Ichigo took over in several instances (Byakuya and that Bounto with the metal doll) – while it does not change ichigos appearance in the outside world (’cept for the mask and eyes, and maybe ability to twist body in weird ways) in the inner world he looks exactly like Ichigo, but white-skinned, and with a white-to-black conversion in uniform and zangetsu coloring
However, when doing the “master the hollw” training with the vaizard, his body took on an almost lizardlike form, and fought anyone nearby (and maybe significantly, transformed where damaged, including an appearance of weird chain-being-devoured-like attack). All the while he was talking(fighting) with his hollow-self in the inner world.
Can the hollow fight on the inside and outside? What’s with the lizardlike form and the almost innate use of Cero?
7) Ichigo was told to “not die until I appear again” by his hollow-self. Maybe even more insane reiatsu levels and powers?
cool i forgot about that stuff.
GOOD JOB! 
PLEASE DO NOT FLARE ME.
who commmetns at 4 in the morning whhoaaaah
Someone from a different timezone? lol
Or just an insomniac would do
no the site cant tell am. from pm. so it allways says am. .
your hybrid theory is i think correct because like you said he obtained both hollow and shinigami powers at the same time. in the series they take already hollow and use that gem to make them arrancars and already existing shinigami find a way to gain hollow powers /or mask so both sides are more like 2/3rds of either hollow or shinigami. so meaning Ichigo is neither hollow or shinigami but both at the same time
WELL I THINK HE IS BOTH ITS LIKE A SPLIT PERSONALITY THE SHINIGAMI IS THE STRONGEST RIGHT NOW SO HE IS A VIZARD AND REMEMBER THE HOLLOW INSIDE OF HIM SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO TAKE OVER HIS BODIE WHEN ICHIGO SLIP UP N IF THE HOLLOW TAKES OVER THAT WOULD MAKE HIM A ARRANCAR BCUZ THEN HE WILL BE A HOLLOW SO BASICLY ICHIGO IS BOTH AN ARRANCAR AND A VIZARD BUT AT FIRST HE WAS HALF MORTAL N HALF SHINIGAMI BCUZ HIS MOM WAS HUMAN SO IM GUESSING HIS MORTAL SIDE TURNED INTO A HOLLOW N THIN ZANGETSU FUISSED WITH THE HOLLOW M THATS WAT THE HOLLOW WAS TALKING ABOUT WHEN KEEP SAYIN “I AM ZANGETSU” N I THINK THE HOLLOW WILL TAKE OVER ICHIGOS BODIE FOR A FEW EPISODESN ALSO THAT THING THAT AIZEN TOOK FROM RUKIAS BODY COULD HAVE TRIGGERD SOMTHING IN ICHIGOS BODY WHEN SHE GAVE HIM HER POWER U NEVER KNO
Hmm, there is something to that. Again, a few mistakes, at least hasty assumptions:
We don’t know his mom was human, just like noone but Urahara and Ishida senior knows about Ichigos father being a shinigami (if that’s what he is); and again there’s Ichigo being refered to as a pureblood, which is still kinda mysterious.
The thing in Rukias gigai was dormant, that was the point of the rigged gigai, to prevent it from functioning; if anything, the power Rukia gave Ichigo was weaker beacause of it – besides, he lost those powers when Byakuya skewered him.
Since there wasn’t much information given on Vaizards, we don’t know he isn’t going through a typical Vaizard-ization process.
What happens if Ichigo slips is a bit questionable too. There was that cool lizard-like hollow when he went through vaizard training, and then again, there’s his hollow self which never formed a full mask when he took over. Not sure if this is because Ichigo never gave him enough time, or because he is powerful enough for his mask to already be broken, Arrancar-style.
Hmm…
Was it shown that Vaizards are shinigamis who can tap their hollow powers?
Nope… It wasn’t directly said. Shinji and his friends just had zanpakutous and masks. They didn’t have black kimonos or even do soul-burials.
They are similar though, they are all kidou-less. No Shakkahou’s, Sokatsui’s, whatsoever. I think the name Vaizard has not been clearly defined hence they are not really the opposite of Arrancars. Arrancars are clearly defined. Watch it.
I think there might be a chance Ichigo is a Vaizard depending on what a Vaizard is.
But their is something funny about ichigo’s power too (zangetsu).
:SPOILER (maybe):
Do you remember when the hollow-ichigo first comes out? Or maybe even the times he fought hollow-ichigo? He(hollow) said that He and Zangetsu was one and the same. I think THAT is even something that isn’t normal with both shinigamis and arrancars or even anything that has reiatsu in the bleach universe. No shinigami or arrancar has a power that manifests both hollow and shinigami powers (the powers are the zanpakutou + persons reiatsu for shinigamis and the being itself for hollows. even arrancars just recall their hollow forms NOT their shinigami powers.)
Finally, I think Ichigo is something else that we can ever define – a being you can only define with the word “perfect hybrid”.
Good point about Vaizards. In the same line, they can interact with normal humans (shinji in school) and don’t seem to switch between body/spirit body to activate their powers.
I don’t agree with the second part though. I’d say everyone with power manifests both sides.
The arrancar have zanpakutos. Not just reshaped power, they talk about their zanpakutos as entities separate from themselves.
And while the arrancars zanpakutos have a freakier shape when released than the shinigamis, it’s more of a Weapon Vs Armor thing than 2 beings Vs 1 being. It’s the zanpakuto that changes form, the owner only partly – they all stay humanoid, just encased in that white substance they use.
Is it really that different from the shinigami? Check out Renji’s enormous skeletal snake thing. You can’t say that’s just a sword anymore. Not to mention the “summons” of the reasearch captain or the fox. Even Byakuya, while claiming to have “swords” manifests them in a manner devoid of almost any connection to the original katana form (well, they still cut, but that’s where the similarity ends)
I also believe both only have 2 forms of their zanpakutos: It has been shown in both the anime and manga that the sealing of the zanpakuto is a technique that the shinigami learn (and some don’t heh). It is not innate to their weapons. So I tend to relate shikai more to the hollows learning to assume humanoid form and obtaining a zanpakuto than the arrancar release.
To sum up:
Controller manages to show some reiatsu (all shinigami ; all hollow)
Controller manifests a part of itself to cope with his inability to channel the huge amounts of reiatsu he now possesses (shinigami awaken a real zanpakuto rather than the weak thing given to them ; arrancarization, the hollow obtain a zanpakuto)
Controller+Zanpakuto becomes more powerful, needs a new shape to use the power: “the last release”, in which the zanpakuto changes form and achieves new heights of power.
In release, (bankai for shinigami, not sure if arrancar have a name for it) they reveal their opposing natures: The shinigami clearly manifest a weapon of some kind, be it a literal weapon or a creature-form that fihts at their side. The arrancar, while still offensive in nature, uniformly manifest an armor of some kind – time could prove me wrong in this.
Also to note: the arrancar is a more powerful form of a hollow, just like a shinigami is a more powerful form of a normal human soul. This is shown in the filler with the dog-like arrancar, which had no contact with Aizen.
I’d say the “perfect hybrid” theory is corrent in the form of a Vaizard rather than just the strawberry (emm, Ichigo
)
well….. ladies and gentlemen, the first proof that ichigo is vizard, is simplt the BANKAI. it is known that arancar have only one release(grimjow is shown to have 2, but not any of them is shown to give any ability vaguelly simmilar to a bankai), that changes the apparance of the body, not the weapon. ichigo when first learning the name of his zanpaktou changes the shape of the broken blade, not that of his own body. news flash: ichigo’s father is shinigami, so why can’t ichigo have been born with dormant shinigami abilities? besides, the fact that urahara makes ichigo vizard when helping him regain shinigami powers, and that the hollow form materializes first, it is the shinigami part that takes control and determines the result.
then there is the point of ichigo’s battle with his inner hollow. when attempting this, his body takes the form of an arancar resurecsion(name given to the release of arancar in the manga), namely the white armor, indicating that ichigo is actually BOTH arancar and vizard, the diference being WHICH sie of him is manifesting in the body….. check it out and prove me wrong, please
It has been made clear that the vaizard know all about the arrancar and the hougyoku and all (episode 124 I think, not sure). Which is important because …
When doing the inner battle to supress his hollow, the vaizard fighting him says “He’s completely transformed into a hollow.” or words to the same effect.
Also to note, the vaizard didn’t seem at all surprised at anything happening to Ichigo, and did infact seem, from the very start, to know exactly what is going on, what will happen, and how to fix it.
My opinion is still that Ichigo in the normal procedure of becoming a vaizard. The above blabber was just some philosophical exercise.
Well, Simply put Ichigo is Vaizard.
His Shinigami powers are not actually from Rukia. His father happens to be a former captain-level Shinigami who is in Gigai.
Well, Simply put Ichigo is Vaizard.
1) Arrancar cannot use the Bankai release.
2) His Shinigami powers are not actually from Rukia. His father happens to be a former captain-level Shinigami who is in Gigai.
He’s a vizard…. duh. ANyone who’s watched the anime to the current episodes (as of this post ep 155), should know this.
crzymn u obviously didnt read my post
I’d like to think Ichigo is something more than a Shinigami or Vizard
Alright kids, *Not meant to be an insult*
I was originally just looking for pictures on the internet, but this little discussion caught my eye. So I am going to say that I haven’t seen all the anime, I haven’t read all the manga, nor am I going to say that all of this is trying to prove this idea one way or another. The information I am going to share is all things I have seen, hear, watched, and read about on various sites that my hacker friends shouldn’t have found.
Alright, the current topic is whether or not people think Ichigo Kurosaki is a Death God, or Shinigami; and whether or not he is a VIZARD or a Arrancar. And yes boys and girls, it is spelled Vizard. Anyways, I was reading up on the different ‘races’ and the difference between the Arrancar and the Vizards. But first things first, I am getting ahead of myself.
Ichigo is a Shinigami, and to deny that fact is slightly naive. They clearly state that he is a Shinigami, and the reason that Ichigo lost his powers with Byakuya Kuchiki was because Byakuya “Shattered his SOUL body’s vitals, the Saketsu Chain, and the Hakusui Soul Sleep.” So basically, He only cut off Ichigo’s way of getting to his own Spiritual Powers. If you go back to the beginning of the Anime, or the Manga, you hear Urahara state that Byakuya “destroyed the source of his spiritual energy” and to get it back, “He had to learn to control his Konpaku body.” And if you think back, Ichigo had his own large amount of spiritual powers before he got Rukia’s. ALSO They never actually state that they take back Rukia’s powers, just that they are not there in him anymore. Stop me if I’m wrong, but I’m quoting out of Volume Seven so you nay-sayers don’t have much room to argue.
And furthermore, it is NEVER stated that you HAVE to go to the Academy and learn to be a Death God, or Soul Reaper. Because the definition of ‘Shinigami’ is “Shinigami are departed human souls that have gained supernatural powers.” It NEVER states that the academy is needed to do that. It is frowned upon not to, but you don’t have to go. Look at the two kids that live with Urahara. In the manga, the little girl Ururu, and Jinta the little boy have the power of a Captain as stated by Urahara himself. And I very much doubt that they went to the Academy. Where in we come to how they got that way. As many of you might know Kisuke Urahara used to be a Captain of Squad 12 in the Gotei 13, and the founder of the Shinigami Research Institute, which after he was Exiled for creating an untraceable Gigai that deteriorated the Sould reaper within, transforming them into a human; Was taken over by Mayuri Kurotsuchi, the mad scientist. So I wonder who trained the children up to their level.. Hm, it’s really a wonder. So the fact that Kisuke did the same thing for Ichigo does not surprise me, especially after using himself as an experiment on how to gain Bankai in three days. Which we all know that Ichigo does it a half a day quicker then Kisuke himself. So, kiddies, Ichigo is a Shinigami, and the Academy had nothing to do with that. Just call him an unregistered user, which is basically what he, Jinta, and Ururu are. And also, it never states in the manga that you have to be dead to be a shinigami loves, you just need a spirit with high spirit energy; which Ichigo has. And the reason his sword did not take form before the training is because during the early years of training in the Academy the Death Gods are shown how to contact their zanpakutō, and learn their names. Which is when they achieve first release. *takes a bow* Thank you, thank you. Your to kind.
NOW! Onto my next set of points.
The Vizard:
“The vizard are the antithesis to the arrancar; they are shinigami who have obtained hollow powers and whose shinigami powers remain dominant (although they do have to undergo a process and maintain their dominance over their hollow), while the arrancar are hollows that have obtained shinigami powers and whose hollow powers remain dominant. Having begun as shinigami, the vizard appear entirely human. Unlike the arrancar, they do not have holes or partial masks (common traits of transformed hollows) anywhere on their body, though they can produce masks on demand, and they carry zanpakutō like normal shinigami. When using their hollow powers, a vizard’s appearance does not change except for the mask on their face and the color of their eyes, with the whites of their eyes turning black and the irises gold. This process of donning one’s hollow mask is referred to as “Hollowification” ”
The Arrancar:
“Arrancar and ordinary hollows differ in two ways: the location of their holes and the near-total disappearance of their masks. When hollows become arrancar, the chances of them retaining a humanoid form increase with their intelligence; only vasto lorde-class arrancar will definitely assume a humanoid form. If powerful enough, an arrancar can seal his or her excess power into the form of a zanpakutō. Unlike with shinigami, this zanpakutō is simply the hollow’s true form sealed into a sword. Therefore, an arrancar’s release of their zanpakutō is merely a temporary restoration of their former selves. An arrancar release is called resurrección. Arrancar do not have a known second release.”
Alright, now that we are all educated, let’s get down to the nitty-gritty.
For one if you look at Wiki.. It does state that Ichigo is a Vizard, and they usually get their stuff right, but no, that is not my only proof. For one, The Hollows that become Arrancar, and retain their human forms have to be Vasto Lorde-class. And since Ichigo’s embrace with his hollow form was so short, I greatly doubt that his hollow had enough time to get that powerful before his Shinigami powers took hold again. And only the more powerful Arracar can actually seal their powers into a sword, which is only a temporary restoration of their former selves. And Also since this happened before Ichigo hit Bankai, it would be impossible for him to be an Arrancar at all because Arrancar DO NOT have a Second Release, which for Ichigo, and other Shinigami, is Bankai. So if Ichigo was a Arracar, he would have never been able to achieve Bankai at all. Only his first release.
Also, to the person who said that Zangetsu was, I’ll go find it… “His zanpaku-to has no soul, Zangetsu is a reflection of Ichigo HIMSELF.” Was gravely mistaken. The Sword had a soul, but when Ichigo’s inner Hollow began to get stronger as Ichigo did, it claims to have assimilated the Original Zangetsu Spirit.
“Zangetsu has displayed the ability to temporarily stop the bleeding from fatal wounds during combat, though whether or not this is a unique ability is unclear. Ichigo’s inner hollow claims that he has since assimilated the original Zangetsu spirit.”
Next.
The Vizards, hm… Well, I think I cleared that one up earlier.. But might as well do it again. Here’s a little something I found.
“The existence of shinigami/hollow hybrids was first hinted fairly early in the series. When Ichigo Kurosaki was training with Kisuke Urahara, Urahara severed Ichigo’s Chain of Fate in order to force him to regain his lost shinigami power. Ichigo was able to recover his shinigami powers when his body began the process of turning into a hollow. Ichigo’s transformation happened out of sequence, his mask forming first instead of his body breaking apart and reforming, a sign of his resistance. When he emerged as a shinigami, he was also wearing a hollow’s mask, which he broke off. After he arrived in Soul Society, the hollow mask reappeared on him on several occasions, even though he repeatedly discarded it. In the fight against Byakuya Kuchiki, Ichigo’s hollow form reformed and his mask started to reform around his face. However, before he completely transformed, Ichigo was able to regain control and tear off the mask once again. Whether this process is uniform for all vizard or merely unique to Ichigo is unclear, though the later symptoms are hinted at being common.”
Here that, it’s later hinted that Ichigo’s unstable transformations are COMMON to that of Vizards.
Well Kiddies, I hope that gave you something to think about, through I can’t remember why I wasted my time researching all of this and looking through early mangas for this topic. But I can say it was fun. ^^;
I hope this causes lots of comments, though I am new here, this is forum or whatever, it was lovely to discuss this with you all. Tata.
- Kiro the Mysterious ^^
Thank you Kiro the mysterious. I know virtually everything about bleach except what hasen’t happened yet. Ichigo is a Vaizard. No debate. Arrancar are hollows that remove their masks. the most effective Arrancar are those made from gillian class menos and above. Ichigo only went complete hollow once, and that was after he agreed to train with the Vaizard, therefore making him one as all the vaisard commented on how his symptoms were normal for a vaisard. Ichigo CANNOT be a Arrancar b/c we saw an arrancar be born (Wonderwice Magera) and it was nothing like how Ichigo gained his hollow powers. To make a strong point stronger, Shinji directly said “I am a Vaizard, one of the masked army. I’m just like you.” There you go straight from a Vaizards mouth. Ichigo is without a doubt, Vaizard.
By this date a ton has been covered and really, I’d just like to point out one thing that I hadn’t ready in these. That’s not to say it hasn’t been said, but there are a lot of replies here and not all of them are intelligent enough to keep my interest even if they do end up with one point or another eventually. My bad.
For the sake of just showing my stance on the main point of this I’ll say a couple things. If you need details, go ahead and ask but, if you do I’ll be amazed.
There’s no chance, at all, that Ichigo is an Arrancar. Not only are there a million traits to say that, but, there has yet to be a single time that an Arrancar hasn’t shown anything but confusion when coming up against Ichigo’s masked form and Arrancars, while maybe extremely bitter and irrational at times, know themselves and their power quite well. Also when Grimmjaw met up with Shinji, he about crapped himself when a mask like that actually appeared a second time.
He’s a Vaizard. He just has no interest in joining their group. His loyalties lie with his friends. Shinji made it a point to tell him Vaizards are generally out-casted, abandoned, feared and hated by people that aren’t one, themselves. Ichigo would never resign himself to a label like that even if he fit it. To him, he’ll always be himself and any power he gains is gained for the sake of protecting something no matter the implications. He’d never say otherwise.
The confusion lies in Ichigo’s own unwillingness to label himself anything.
Now to the main thing I want to say…
People are looking too much at the details and not at the general theme of things even in other manga.
He was human with human bonds.
He was a human who could see human spirits, which also had a form of bond that was only short-lived because they were sent elsewhere, but with Sado and the little bird at the beginning meeting up in Soul Society… It shows they didn’t break.
He was Shinigami with Shinigami bonds.
Now he’s a Vaizard with Vaizard bonds which have lead to…
Also being able to form bonds with Hollows. Nell, for instance.
He’s even made some with Arrancars bent on killing him. The Arrancars themselves are just too bitter to accept it, and rightfully so, in my opinion. They’ve supposedly been about as abused as a soul can get. If anyone expects flowers to pop out of their anus when they hit the ground they’ll be waiting a long time.
No matter how you say it he’s developing into the typical role of the hero who is bent on smashing boundaries, trying to bring on equality by his own means. Any form of “Ascension” could easily be translated to a new set of characters to create bonds with.
Ichigo will end up as everything required to relate to others.
As for perfect hybrid… Only in attitude.
if the arrancars banki form is a stronger hollow,and when ichigo unlocks his banki doesnt it useally come out and take control.is sence arrancar.
I think and hope that he’s neither a Vaizard nor an Arrancar.
I think this because of a fact that until now isn’t really mentioned:
Inoue and Sado develop their own powers and in chapter 44 is explained that those powers were born because of the contact with ichigo.
Show Spoiler ▼
ulquiorra – Not after he gained control over his hollow form though it is still there and in the anime if u remember they all went through what ichigo did to control their hollows.
I’d say his a Vizard for now, though the other Vizards attacks havent been shown he does have his black attack, which is sort of like a mix of Cero and something scary on its own (my theory came from the colour of it ^^).
honestly though, we’ll find out when his good an ready to let the viewers find out till then we have to keep watching and hoping ichigo wins (and hoping Grimmjow and Ulquiorra lives!)
A lot of you guys seem to believe that shinigamis have to be dead, in order to awaken their spirit power. Then, are urahara, Icchin, and Yoruichi dead? What aboout Sado? Obviously awakening your inner shinigami is pretty hard in the real world, cause in order to do that, your soul has to be away from your body, and doesn’t happen that often
well i agree with the author, but he is a little more vizard because if i recall the vizards said that similar things happened to them. though i dont know how they did it… because they would need to let the hollow out first.
i dont see the big point in all the flaming this is the way it could go
the way i see it ichigo did have a hollow hole while he was fifghting his inner hollow think about it this way if a vizard didnt overcome there inner hollow they would be hollow with shinigami powers but not a arrancar they would be able to evolve into gillian adjuchas and vasto lorde and arrancar like normal hollows but they would have shinigami zanpakuto anyway arrancar zanpakuto are a mifestation of there hollow powers while shinigami with there zanpakuto ichigo could go either way as i recall they did show a perfect bankai shinigami hollow hybrid with ichigo while he was training with the vizard he had a zanpakuto but had a almost complete mask as in a completely new breed of soul anyone get what im typing
I think Urahara took ichigo to reobtain shinigami powers because he knew about his father (ishin, who is a shinigami).. if he didn’t knew that ichigo’s soul is shinigami’s i think he wouldn’t take him for training..
PS:sorry for my english i don’t know much :p
first of all I am a Huge Bleach Nerd and i masterbate to ichigo’s anime tears .. he’s so romantic
i think he is another kind,,
cos his mask has got colours in it n i havent seen any mask with colours,,
may be… dont really know…
hey mode, hiyori has colors in her mask… and i have seen so many hollows with colors. It’s not only Ichigo’s mask which has colors
I think that Ichigo is a Vizard because for one thing Arrancar have their hollow mask ripped off in order to get the power of a shinigami, but Ichigo can pull on his hollow mask at anytime he wants. The same goes for the Vizard who have the ability to pull on their masks at anytime they want. Next Arrancar are technically Hollow because they have that hole in their body, which shows that they have no heart, but ichigo doesn’t have a GIANT hole in him. I do agree that ichigo is a hybrid of the two, but not perfect because he has more Vizard ability then Arrancar ability. Take for example, when Ichigo releases his Zanpakutou, he doesn’t turn into a giant monster like the Arrancar.
My thoughts
ichigo is not anncar
he is not a vizard
he is not a hybrid
he is a plus who is also a minus and a shinigami at the same time
also a shinigami is just a plus with high spiritual powers
so all ichigo is, is a plus + a minus in one spirtual body
Ichigo is a vaizard based on the latest manga you can see that the vaizards were made almost the same way
Hey zgtaf chad isn’t a shinigami.
also I see a lot of you haven’t seen how the other vizards were made so for those who don’t know you should really check out the turn back the pendulum miniseries on onemanga.com it will open your eyes to why a lot of stuff thats happening now is the way it is.
mmmm I think he is a vaizard anyway I DONT KNOW
Apon futher study this is my hypothesis
Ichigo is not a vizard because he was not a shinigami who turned into a hollow. He was a plus who started to become a hollow first then he became a shinigami ; so he is a hollow who became a shinigami , but he is not an anncar because he does not have the anncar’s zompacto release form. So he is nether a vizard or an anncar. So he may be a hybrid of some type , but he is alot more like a vizard than an anncar. The only way that we will ever know where they are going with this is for the manga or anime to bring it to light.
JoeyDynomite
The hougyoku requires someone with twice the spirit energy of a captin to activate it in its contained state so the hougyoku could not have altered ichigo when rukia gave him 75% of her shinigami powers, when she doesn’t even have enough powers to be a lieutenant [vice-captian], so the hougyoku had no part, as much as I can reason, to ichigo to become a so called hybrid.
JoeyDynomite
if you don’t belive me check the Arrancar season
Ichigo has his own Shinigami powers, which is why he was able to become a Soul Reaper again in the first place.
Remember, Byakuya only destroyed the powers Rukia gave him, not his own.
Ichigo had his own Soul Reaper powers in the very beginning, but his powers were dormant. So technically, he had the powers of a Soul Reaper before he even met Rukia, but they were dormant until he was litterally forced into using them before he was turned into a Hollow. That’s why Urahara even attempted the training in the first place, because theres no point on trying it on someone who wasn’t born with dormant Soul Reaper powers.
His father was also a Shinigami, which may be the source of his massive amount of Spiritual Energy, and the fact that he had dormant Shinigami powers.
Also, there are several different ways we can tell Ichigo is not an Arrancar:
1.He doesn’t have a piece of mask on him anywhere.
2.Theres no hole on his body anywhere.
1st. all souls have the ability to become death gods or hollows cheack back to the first season.
2nd. and i was just saying that a the hougyoku had no effect on ichigo when rukia gave him her powers.
3rd. also Arrancars have there peculier way to release there zonpacto
i know this is off topic but i was just wondering when ichigo fought his inner hollow it said it was zangetsu..and also i think ichigo sword is hmm different than others if you recall when he first released it on urahara that big guy wit the corn rolls was seriously taken aback from what he saw
the inner hollow zangetsu the old man zangetsu are the same being within ichigo , they represent the greatest strength within ichigo at that time.
and the never answered tessai (the big guy) answered how he did
what if ichigo’s inner hollow takes over and he becomes an arrancar by removing his mask.
(side note: ichigo’s inner hollow looks like a Adjuchas class menos grande)
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Right, so…Clearly no-one has bothered replying to this in a long ass time but I’m going to post anyways. Ichigo is a shinigami, plain and simple. With that being said he’s not a part of soul society or the Gotei 13. He is, however, still a shinigami. When the hollow mask was formed as he recovered his lost powers it was simply a display of the fact he was becoming a hollow but hadn’t become one yet. The shinigami side and hollow side were battling for control of his soul and the shinigami side won even though the Hollow side was starting to take over. HOWEVER, it couldn’t completely erase the hollow, as such the hollow side was simply weakened and remained dormant. Everytime the hollow mask appeared it was the inner hollow, in it’s weakened state, protecting what it wants to be it’s body. See…It wasn’t strong enough to overcome Ichigo’s psyche at the time so it simply manifested itself in the form of the mask and blocked the blow. That’s all it had the strength to do. However, when Ichigo became significantly weakened the hollow gained the ability to break free. And….that isn’t a half mask…there just wasn’t enough time for the hollow to form it all the way and have full control. Now then, Ichigo had his own shinigami powers right from the start, therefor, he isn’t in any way an arrancar. Not to say that he couldn’t become one. If his hollow side were to take over then Ichigo would turn completely into a Hollow or an Arrancar. It could go either way since Shirosaki/Inner Hollow has displayed the powers of a menos grande despite not being one. So therefor he is currently a shinigami who isn’t a part of the Gotei 13 organization. His father is definitely an ex-captain who was banished or left soul society given that he wears a captains hakama on his arm. Also, I saw a ridiculous claim that the soul king or whatever was related to Ichigo….Yeah, not so much, the reason Ichigo looks familiar to Ikutake is that he’s virtually identical to his former vice captain, Kaien. That’s why Byakuya said that, not due to Ichigo’s father being a former captain. When it comes to Shirosaki saying “I am Zangetsu.”. Someone already beat me to the point…The persona that appears to Ichigo is simply the strongest of the two. At first the hollow was still developing and so Zangetsu was stronger but then the Hollow overcame that part of Ichigo’s soul and Zangetsu became a part of the Hollow. However, I also think the Hollow might even be suppressing Zangetsu entirely and keeping Ichigo from drawing on his power to make it easier for the Hollow to overcome him. There’s a few details that support that such as the fact that Shirosaki says, “I’ll just make it so you can’t use bankai”. And the sword disappears like that, leading me to believe that the sword Ichigo uses currently is in fact a fake created by the hollow side in place of the true Zangetsu. I’m not saying it’s a cheap replica…but rather a whole third of Ichigo’s full power may be held back by the hollow. The hollow uses half of it’s power to create the zanpakutou Ichigo uses and the other half when Ichigo pulls the mask out. Basically, Zangetsu’s strength is cut out of the mix entirely. I personally think that’s going to be the next major breakthrough, Ichigo restoring Zangetsu to his side and fully dominating Shirosaki and gaining full use of his strength. He’ll gain all that power but it’ll be just raw power and not techniques, abilities, or anything else. If not, it’ll be the opposite, no extra power just same crazy new technique that let’s him use the Vizard abilities with greater effectiveness and skill.
Right, so…Clearly no-one has bothered replying to this in a long ass time but I’m going to post anyways. Ichigo is a shinigami, plain and simple. With that being said he’s not a part of soul society or the Gotei 13. He is, however, still a shinigami. When the hollow mask was formed as he recovered his lost powers it was simply a display of the fact he was becoming a hollow but hadn’t become one yet. The shinigami side and hollow side were battling for control of his soul and the shinigami side won even though the Hollow side was starting to take over. HOWEVER, it couldn’t completely erase the hollow, as such the hollow side was simply weakened and remained dormant. Everytime the hollow mask appeared it was the inner hollow, in it’s weakened state, protecting what it wants to be it’s body. See…It wasn’t strong enough to overcome Ichigo’s psyche at the time so it simply manifested itself in the form of the mask and blocked the blow. That’s all it had the strength to do. However, when Ichigo became significantly weakened the hollow gained the ability to break free. And….that isn’t a half mask…there just wasn’t enough time for the hollow to form it all the way and have full control. Now then, Ichigo had his own shinigami powers right from the start, therefor, he isn’t in any way an arrancar. Not to say that he couldn’t become one. If his hollow side were to take over then Ichigo would turn completely into a Hollow or an Arrancar. It could go either way since Shirosaki/Inner Hollow has displayed the powers of a menos grande despite not being one. So therefor he is currently a shinigami who isn’t a part of the Gotei 13 organization. His father is definitely an ex-captain who was banished or left soul society given that he wears a captains hakama on his arm. Also, I saw a ridiculous claim that the soul king or whatever was related to Ichigo….Yeah, not so much, the reason Ichigo looks familiar to Ikutake is that he’s virtually identical to his former vice captain, Kaien. That’s why Byakuya said that, not due to Ichigo’s father being a former captain. When it comes to Shirosaki saying “I am Zangetsu.”. Someone already beat me to the point…The persona that appears to Ichigo is simply the strongest of the two. At first the hollow was still developing and so Zangetsu was stronger but then the Hollow overcame that part of Ichigo’s soul and Zangetsu became a part of the Hollow. However, I also think the Hollow might even be suppressing Zangetsu entirely and keeping Ichigo from drawing on his power to make it easier for the Hollow to overcome him. There’s a few details that support that such as the fact that Shirosaki says, “I’ll just make it so you can’t use bankai”. And the sword disappears like that, leading me to believe that the sword Ichigo uses currently is in fact a fake created by the hollow side in place of the true Zangetsu. I’m not saying it’s a cheap replica…but rather a whole third of Ichigo’s full power may be held back by the hollow. The hollow uses half of it’s power to create the zanpakutou Ichigo uses and the other half when Ichigo pulls the mask out. Basically, Zangetsu’s strength is cut out of the mix entirely. I personally think that’s going to be the next major breakthrough, Ichigo restoring Zangetsu to his side and fully dominating Shirosaki and gaining full use of his strength. He’ll gain all that power but it’ll be just raw power and not techniques, abilities, or anything else. If not, it’ll be the opposite, no extra power just same crazy new technique that let’s him use the Vizard abilities with greater effectiveness and skill. I’d cover more points but it’s a real bitch to type all this up on a Blackberry.
he was meant to be both!!
as many ppl have known, udahara made the captains, or most at any rate, of the 13 squads into the current vaizards. Aizen is making hollows into arrancars. Since udahara is so awesome, he has seen that both have faults and found the ultimate solution, son of Isshin (who is totally bad ass to start with), given use of his own power and the aid of his negative (hollow) powers at the same time, will spawn a new entity of being.
this is the pattern i see emerging, the base existance of whats what, then adding a twist, then adding in the opposites. this is filling in the hole ^^
my $.02 for what it’s worth. Ichigo possessed Shinigami powers inside from the start. Like someone else said, Rukia just awakened them. He was already able to see spirits. We knew that much. When Byakuya nearly killed his ass and Urahara found him, I think it just solidified his already conceived plan to make Ichigo stronger. He knew and sensed Ichigo’s ability to strengthen within a short amount of time. I don’t know how he knows this but I’ve gotten the feeling for a while that Urahara knows WHY Ichigo is able to learn at a superfast rate. Probably because there’s even more to Ishin’s secret of being a former Shinigami Captain I’m guessing.
With all that said, as it stands right now, Ichigo IS a Vizard. His hollowfication cemented that fact. Urahara did it purposefully knowing it would make him even stronger more quickly. As much as Urahara might be his friend, he also knew they would need someone like Ichigo on their side for the war, as a military asset.
I don’t know what lays beyond this point for Ichigo for certain but I do believe he will be the one to bring down Aizen. I think the Vizard will kill the top three Espada or Tousen and Gin. But Ichigo said it in his fight with Grimm Jow. He won over Grimm Jow and told him he’d beat Ulquiorra AND Aizen. And we all know what happens when Ichigo makes a promise out loud, right? lol
So far as the Manga goes, we’re about to see Ulquiorra beaten by Ichigo I’m sure.
He practically died in order to strengthen and lengthen his mask time, making him equal to an Espada. I can only guess his near future battles will strengthen him to become as strong as Aizen. That’s the pattern I’m seeing.
Something tells me this hougyoku is probably one of the elements that hastens the process. I wonder what would happen if Ichigo got close to that thing?
In the Manga I noticed something happened to Orihime’s powers since she spent time in Hueco Mundo and met with Aizen and the hougyoku. She was able to be even farther away from those she needed to “heal” and she was able to put up multiple “barriers” around them. In any even, I guess we shall see eventually.
It will be an interesting ride.
Ichigo is more vizard than arracar.
1. He cant take on and off his mask. Which vizards can do not aracarr
2. He has no traces left behind from his mask
3. He can transform into a shinigami
4. He does not/cannot Cero
5. He does not have a hollow hole
Most of you have it right, but if u remember when he was gettting his Soul reaper powers back When talkin to Zangetsu he said he always had soul reaper powers lying within him So that makes him a soul reaper. Therefore even though he struggles with his “inner hollow” he is a vaizard in all senses.
This is a nice topic & i have been enlightened in some ways. I think he’s a vaizard.. regarding powers.. people seems to forget that isshin is a shinigami.. & ichigo being his son… has shinigami blood … so i think he’s a vaizard
AHEM!! Okey, first- I am firmly standing with he is a Arrancar! Here is my proof:
Check chapter 175, pg. 5! He clearly says- “Hollow–Shinigami” “Shinigami–Hollow” Therefore!! Viazzado and Arrancar arn’t much different! (only that arrancars kick %#*!!)
And also-Lupus!! When he is fully hollowfied (chapter 222, pg. 2) his right eye is NOT, i repeat, NOT covered! So therefore, if stupid old man Zangetsu didnt show up he would’ve been a full-out arrancar!
So, i think that Aizen planned the whole time!!! I(f he were to defeat the arrancar he get fed the spirit particles from their bodies! therefore eventually ending up as the “Exacta” Uno araancar!
Also!! kim– He can, in chapter 346LQ Ulqiorra says his getsuga tenshou is equal to his Blanco Cero!
(look up Ichigo Final Release in google.com under images!)
Hey people! I believe Ichigo IS infact a HYBRID of both Arrancar and Vaizard. Do you guys remember who made Ichigo a Shinigami first?…. Yep.. Rukia. Where was the HOUGYOKU hidden?( the stone thing that Aizen slole inside Rukia’s body which Urahara made ) Inside Rukia’s body. What Does HOUGYOKU capable of?
Now I think Urahara and Isshin ( Ichigo’s Dad ) had planned it all along. To make a Hybrid out of Ichigo. And maybe Yoruichi is also behind it.
When Rukia “made” ichigo a shinigami, she did not have HOUGYOKU in her body. hougyoku was in the gigai urahara prepared for her. she got the gigai after she made ichigo a shinigami and lost a great portion of her powers as a shinigami.
hmm… i really dont think ichigo is an arrancar, especially considering his appearence and the arrancars attitude towards him, Uliquiora would notice, also if he were an arrancar then anyone with any decent kind of sense (i mean people in the show) would have noticed because he would be a hollow. that machine thingy, that the research bureau developed to detect arrancar would also go haywire twenty four seven because of ichigos presence. Also Ichigo has a lack of a hole on his body. Also Urahara couldnt have “planned” anything because he doesnt even know how to control the hougyoku and most likely aizen doesnt completely understand it either.
and to the previous comments how do you know that it was in the gigai, i dont recall it saying that, and it is very possible that in the time rukia was seperated from her sister while still young Urahara had the hougyoku inserted in her actual soul, plus her gigai was destroyed upon entry to the soul society so the hougyoku would have fallen out or something.
oh and the above comment was mine, just saying i havent watched bleach in some time so my facts/ ideals could be completely wrong so plz dont yell at me and i dont mind constructive/corrective criticism
thx
Ichigo has to be some type of hybrid. He obtained his powers totally different from shinji and the other vaizard. They obtained their hollow powers from aizen doing hollow experimentation on them, and Uharara using the Hougyoku to try and save them. The Hougyoku is a deviced used to strengthen souls and beaks the barrier between shinigami and hollows. Both the vaizard and arrancar achieved their power through the use of the hougyoku. Ichigo is able to break that barrier between shinigami and hollow without the hougyoku, implying he is neither vaizard or arrancar.
Ichigo is obviously comprised of shinigami and hollow powers, the dominant side has to be shinigami side because he keeps his inner hollow in check and only becomes like a hollow when he fights. Ichigo uses these hollow powers to achieve a 2nd hollowifcation stage where he gains a hollow in his chest and starts to look more like an arrancar and has the ability to do cero. Neither vaizard or arrancar have abilities ichigo does so he is in a class of his own.
I agree that he isn’t one or the other. He is more Vizard then Arrancar, however,(spoiler warning for people who haven’t gotten to Hueco mundo arc) we don’t know the full extent of the Vizards abilities, and we do know that the hollow can take over, like we saw when Ulquiorra “killed” Ichigo and Ichigo want animalistic. Or would that be hollowistic… The hollow is one of the higher levels, hence the ability to use Cero. But you notice-Zangetsu stayed! Just felt like pointing that out. We have to wait and see if the Vizard’s hollows can come out also, or if they only can do the mask. I don’t know, I just don’t know. But I sure hope to find out. And by the way, I was reading a thread before, on a different website. ICHIRUKI FANS UNITE!!!! Ignore me, I’m a crazed fangirl.
The website my name links to is the one that I use to read the manga. It is up to date and easy to navigate. Hope it helps!
I watch the anime on http://www.4bleach.com . Great website, up to date + navigate goodness! I am oneluckyduck on 4bleach. The only qualms I have about that website is the fact that a few pop-ups will come up, but they are blocked by my pop-up blocker, so I don’t mind. Also, you will have to turn off the sound on the Chatango box on the right side of the screen, but really, it IS a great website. Please check them both out!!!!
~~~~ =^.,^=
i don’t understand where i can get episode 215 in subs
and if episode 218 is the last episode either please reply
oh and don’t get mad if this is besides the point of this page
I believe that Ichigo is neither a Vaizard nor an Arrancar.He is more like a combination of both, like you said, “a perfect hybrid”. (Spoiler:)Since he get’s a lvl 2 Hollow Mask, he looks more like a hollow than a human.
I can’t wait till we find out what happen’s. ^w^
i still don’t understand where if 218 is the last episode
PLEASE REPLY!!!!!!!
please don’t get mad if this is beside the point of this page
ichigo is not a half breed ppl, an arrancar is a hollow that has broken its mask using the hogokyou or what ever it is called, also, arrancar r not human, they take the form of humans, also, ichigo is vizard for a vizard is someone who has an inner hollow and finds a way to take over the hollow and use their power by creating a hollow mask, vizards are former shinigami, also, ichigo’s hollow is slowly evolving into a hollow more powerful than the 10 espada which go from 9-0 with yammy being 0 the strongest
(everyone is entitled to their OWN opinion/interpretation) that being said, HERES WHAT I THINK the manga shows his father was a soul reaper which makes ichigo a purebred (yes since shinigami are are race) the SON of a soul reaper, which means (again as told by manga) that ichigo was BORN with soul reaper powers although unawakened (member how byakuya had to train & go to the SHINIGAMI ACADEMY to replace his grandfather as captain of the 6th/head of kuchiki’s? well ichigo didnt go to no academy… Rukia stabbed him with her sword (thus awakening HIS own shinigami powers and eating rukia’s (member zarakis speech?…. “when 2 spirit energies meet the weaker gets bossed around” THEN byakuya cut his soul chain & soul sleep…..this is when….after being a natural occuring soul reaper….the dark side of his soul “member hollows are created when a spirits soul chain runs out and said SPIRIT (NO matter alive or dead) harbors great deal of negative feelings(which is why in the “turn back the pendulum” when Shinji gets (hogyoku’ed) + angry, he starts turning into a hollow …the angrier he gets the faster he “hollowifies” …..ok as I was saying the dark side of ichigos soul escaped after the byakuya incident and since as I have already explained he WAS already a soul reaper, instead of turning hollow, he gained hollow powers AS a Shinigami: Vizard which is why he emerges with his shihakushou “death chlothes” & Zanpakuto + hollow MASK just like hiyori when she got turned into a vizard… also if Ichigo was an Arrancar the release of his sword would activate his hollow powers…and yet ichigo is able to use bankai without becoming hollow.. VIZARDS on the other hand can release their swords all they want or not release them at all and still call forth their mask…..furthermore look at the eyes of the espada on release (grimjow, nnoitra, neliel) and then look at the eyes of a hollowified VIZARD (hiyori, shinji, etc…) VIZARD eyes are all the same BLACK SCLERA [the part that is white in norm humans] YELLOW IRIS [the part that has colors in norm humans] …..well I cant think of anything else that validates my point of view and I think ive rambled enough so there!(ive tried to simplify as much as posible)
I copletely agree with what you are saying and i have the same reasons… i believe he is neither because it does not make sense for him to be arrancar or vizard. However.. i have heard rumours that he is a Vasto Lorde these are only rumours and i have no evidence. I am so confused lol… please comment if you with to disuss… =]
ichigo and a ganzo
you excuse but ichigo cannot be only a substitute shinigami since and become alone a shinigami and not thanks to rukia, those you/he/she has lost them for a long time